I hate the goverment sometimes here in the USA...

...so they've banned the only other vice I had. Clove Cigarettes......yeah , I'm an old Goth bastard. So many god damn regulations on everything lately. Can't wait till we have an actual "big brother" in our houses monitoring behavior.

only fags smoke cloves

But yeah getting rid of "flavored cigarettes" is a stupid move that will have absolutely no impact on the youth of our country taking up smoking. Why doesn't the fucking government stop trying to control what I do to my body and do something useful, like fund schools or fix the goddamned roads.

Here is MA a pack of cigarettes is like $9. $5 for the smokes and $4 for the state taxes. People drive up to New Hamshire to get the cigarettes for like $30 a carton. According to a recent survey New Hampshire, while having a much lower population than MA has recently surpassed the number of smokers per capita than almost any other state...

Now there is talk that they are going to add a similar "sin tax" to alcohol...
I bet New Hampshire will ahve above average alcohol consumtion by this time next year

i'm not sure which is worse, banning something completely for health reasons, or just taxing the shit out of it until you no longer want to buy it anymore.

luxury taxes and sin taxes are pretty odd things, but since they generate sooooo much revenue they are deemed a necessity

colbert wrote:i'm not sure which is worse, banning something completely for health reasons, or just taxing the shit out of it until you no longer want to buy it anymore.

luxury taxes and sin taxes are pretty odd things, but since they generate sooooo much revenue they are deemed a necessity

The government should just open fucking casinos.. they would make enough money from morons that people wouldn't have to be taxed so hard. Hell legalize weed, we are already a few steps away from that (decriminalization in MA!) and then tax it like they do cigs. the government would make a killing there too, and people would be less angry about it

All wonderful ideas. Never though about government-run casinos, but it's brilliant!

I think we're pretty close to legalizing it too. Just think about how much money that would bring in...

ontheDL wrote:All wonderful ideas. Never though about government-run casinos, but it's brilliant!

I think we're pretty close to legalizing it too. Just think about how much money that would bring in...

The government already runs a gambling racquet. Its called the State Lotteries (Mega Millions etc).
Now if thy had casino's they would have a place where they could sell you over-taxed liquor at the same time.

If the government actually wanted to fix our tax problems, they would come up with some sort of legislation/amendment that would force people to pay taxes on merchandise ordered or shipped over state lines. People order all their shit online to save on the sales taxes, and more and more brick-and-mortar shops go out of business. This puts more people out of work, which puts more burden on state and local governments, which have less tax dollars to work out a solution and help people. It's bullshit.

Shut the fuck up dreamattack! I order 80% of what I buy online!

Not all states have a Sales Tax, therefore its not fair to tax all purchases made online. I think the current model of charging sales tax for web purchases made in the same state if that state has a sales tax is perfectly fair. Also, I don't think that items purchased internationally should be taxed, since it is already so expensive to ship things in and out of the country (even to Canada).

In actuality there is little to no evidence that ordering online really hurts B&M stores. Most major B&M stores, walmart, bestbuy, target, etc have websites where you can order merchandise online and in most cases go to the store to pick it up if it is in stock. If you look at it one one, online shopping is extremely beneficial to these companies because it allows them in many cases to offer far more merchandise than they could ever fit into a physical location. It also allows them to reach far more customers (some in other countries) than they would if the only options was to go to their physical locations to buy stuff.

Arguing that shopping online has put small mom & pop websites out of business is likely untenable. Small mom & pop shops were put out of business by large stores like walmart, and before walmart, bradlees, caldor lechermere etc. Small stores can never really hope to compete with large chains in terms of customer bases, pricing or purchasing power (from suppliers). And if there is enough value for a large company to enter the sector currently covered by small mom & pop shops there is no way the mom & pop shops can compete.

If anything, the internet is the last true bastion of mom & pop shops. It allows in many cases individuals to buy and sell merchandise online with very small upfront costs. Stores that we all shop from like Tainted Visions, Lulubell Toys, Cardboard Spaceship, Imaginegate, Frozen Empire etc are all small 1-5 people operations for the most part. Also the internet gives small mom & pop shops like Red Hot Robot the chance to expand their customer base. Even though they have a B&M location, I would never have gone there to buy stuff since it is nowhere near me, but I have made several mid-high value purchases from them via their website.

In short:
Legal Weed & Gambling = Good!
High Taxes = BAD!

As a side note, I live in Massachusetts which has some of the highest per-capita tax rates per person. Not to mention sales tax (which just went up) taxes on water going in and out of your home, insanely high property taxes, sin taxes on cigarettes & tobacco products (and soon alcohol) and plenty of other taxes that I can't remember. In fact MA was rated as having the highest tax revenue generation of any state in the USA. It was also rated the poorest in state government spending accountability. Ever hear of the Big Dig? I first heard about it when I was 5. It was supposed to be done when I was 15. 22 billion dollars later I am almost thirty and the fuckign thing still isn't done.

whacko wrote:Shut the fuck up dreamattack! I order 80% of what I buy online!

Not all states have a Sales Tax, therefore its not fair to tax all purchases made online. I think the current model of charging sales tax for web purchases made in the same state if that state has a sales tax is perfectly fair. Also, I don't think that items purchased internationally should be taxed, since it is already so expensive to ship things in and out of the country (even to Canada).

In actuality there is little to no evidence that ordering online really hurts B&M stores. Most major B&M stores, walmart, bestbuy, target, etc have websites where you can order merchandise online and in most cases go to the store to pick it up if it is in stock. If you look at it one one, online shopping is extremely beneficial to these companies because it allows them in many cases to offer far more merchandise than they could ever fit into a physical location. It also allows them to reach far more customers (some in other countries) than they would if the only options was to go to their physical locations to buy stuff.

Arguing that shopping online has put small mom & pop websites out of business is likely untenable. Small mom & pop shops were put out of business by large stores like walmart, and before walmart, bradlees, caldor lechermere etc. Small stores can never really hope to compete with large chains in terms of customer bases, pricing or purchasing power (from suppliers). And if there is enough value for a large company to enter the sector currently covered by small mom & pop shops there is no way the mom & pop shops can compete.

If anything, the internet is the last true bastion of mom & pop shops. It allows in many cases individuals to buy and sell merchandise online with very small upfront costs. Stores that we all shop from like Tainted Visions, Lulubell Toys, Cardboard Spaceship, Imaginegate, Frozen Empire etc are all small 1-5 people operations for the most part. Also the internet gives small mom & pop shops like Red Hot Robot the chance to expand their customer base. Even though they have a B&M location, I would never have gone there to buy stuff since it is nowhere near me, but I have made several mid-high value purchases from them via their website.

In short:
Legal Weed & Gambling = Good!
High Taxes = BAD!

As a side note, I live in Massachusetts which has some of the highest per-capita tax rates per person. Not to mention sales tax (which just went up) taxes on water going in and out of your home, insanely high property taxes, sin taxes on cigarettes & tobacco products (and soon alcohol) and plenty of other taxes that I can't remember. In fact MA was rated as having the highest tax revenue generation of any state in the USA. It was also rated the poorest in state government spending accountability. Ever hear of the Big Dig? I first heard about it when I was 5. It was supposed to be done when I was 15. 22 billion dollars later I am almost thirty and the fuckign thing still isn't done.

Yeah, sorry, but I disagree. As a person who deals with B&M stores and who follows daily/weekly/quarterly/annual data on the subject, there is a ton of evidence to the contrary. I'm not going to get into a whole thing back and forth, as we so love to do. However, I have seen first-hand FOR YEARS as business increased for the online sites and DECREASED in the stores. Every season, every year it's been happening. iTunes and Amazon killed Tower and Virgin, for example. The companies may sell more, yes, but it does not translate into jobs gained versus the damage to the B&M stores. People come to the stores, try everything on and check it out in person, and then they buy it online and save the sales tax.

I agree with a lot of your statement, particularly regarding big-box stores, but there is more to the story. What needs to happen is for the playing field to be evened out, which means making sure that brick and mortar shops are not at a disadvantage. I hate the sales taxes too, but if you want to argue about sales taxes that is another beast entirely.

Let me be clear, I do not have a problem with ordering things online. I have a problem with the fact that online shops have a major advantage over brick and mortar shops in that they don't have to charge tax. My statement refers to taxing purchases based on the tax of the state to which it is being sent, and that is how it ought to be done. If that state doesn't have a sales tax, then you are a lucky bastard and you don't have to pay anything anyway. So abolish sales taxes for everyone, or make everyone pay them. As it stands, it's complete bullshit and you know it. We, the consumers, benefit superficially from the current system and so we want to keep it as is. Long-term, however, I believe it is in the best interests of all of us as individuals for the loop-holes to be closed.

Just my 2 cents.

Tower & Virgin suffered greatly from competition by Bestbuy & Walmart too. Yes iTunes kills a lot of small music stores (any that were left after big box stores moved into their area anyway), but I argue that iTunes actually gives people what they want, the ability to buy the music that they want and not be forced to buy the music that they don't want and the ability to get music any time and not be constrained by store hours. Like I said, your argument that taxing all online purchases would have saved places like Tower & Virgin is just not true. iTunes gives people the ability to buy any music they like $1 per song or $10 per albums (most of the time) at Tower & Virgin stores CDs were an average of $16. Had Tower & Virgin had the ability to sell singles for $1 or albums for $10 they would have remained competitive. However they could not since they had to deal with physical merchandise as well as a physical location and a relatively lage staff (not that iTunes is one guy or anything). In any case even with taxes of 7-9% iTunes & Amazon would still have been cheaper, so if we are basing the success of these two online outlets by price & convenience, even with an online sales tax Tower & Virgin would still likely have lost a large portion of their customer base.

And don't feel too sorry for Tower & Virgin and other music "megastores" these are the guys that made the small enthusiast-run mom & pop shops go under. Just like the internet is making these stores fade away.

Also, who would have collected this tax? Like I said a lot of states don't have sales tax (which is why I shop in New Hampshire a lot ) but would half go to the state that the seller is from and half to where the buyer is from? Would it all go to the state where the seller is from? Would it all go to the federal government? How would it be spent? Would these taxes include revenue from online auctions sites like eBay? Would services that are otherwise untaxed be taxed because they are completed as part of an online transaction? These are the kind of issues that have prevented a unified online tax from being implemented and the solution is not as easy as it sounds.

You make the argument that ordering online is successful mainly or only because you don't have to pay sales tax in most cases. I know that for a fact is untrue.

Shopping online is successful because it is for the most part very convenient, and it gives customers access to a far greater range of merchandise than they would ever be able to find at a local store. It also gives consumers the ability to shop around for the best price because if a product is available only at one store, that store sets the price. However if a product is available from many locations prices tend to be more competitive. The internet is the largest marketplace in the world with many retailers selling the same or similar merchandise at generally competitive rates.

fuck big brother....

for real, don't get me started on what a piece of shit country the United States is becoming.

whacko wrote:Tower & Virgin suffered greatly from competition by Bestbuy & Walmart too. Yes iTunes kills a lot of small music stores (any that were left after big box stores moved into their area anyway), but I argue that iTunes actually gives people what they want, the ability to buy the music that they want and not be forced to buy the music that they don't want and the ability to get music any time and not be constrained by store hours. Like I said, your argument that taxing all online purchases would have saved places like Tower & Virgin is just not true. iTunes gives people the ability to buy any music they like $1 per song or $10 per albums (most of the time) at Tower & Virgin stores CDs were an average of $16. Had Tower & Virgin had the ability to sell singles for $1 or albums for $10 they would have remained competitive. However they could not since they had to deal with physical merchandise as well as a physical location and a relatively lage staff (not that iTunes is one guy or anything). In any case even with taxes of 7-9% iTunes & Amazon would still have been cheaper, so if we are basing the success of these two online outlets by price & convenience, even with an online sales tax Tower & Virgin would still likely have lost a large portion of their customer base.

And don't feel too sorry for Tower & Virgin and other music "megastores" these are the guys that made the small enthusiast-run mom & pop shops go under. Just like the internet is making these stores fade away.

Also, who would have collected this tax? Like I said a lot of states don't have sales tax (which is why I shop in New Hampshire a lot ) but would half go to the state that the seller is from and half to where the buyer is from? Would it all go to the state where the seller is from? Would it all go to the federal government? How would it be spent? Would these taxes include revenue from online auctions sites like eBay? Would services that are otherwise untaxed be taxed because they are completed as part of an online transaction? These are the kind of issues that have prevented a unified online tax from being implemented and the solution is not as easy as it sounds.

You make the argument that ordering online is successful mainly or only because you don't have to pay sales tax in most cases. I know that for a fact is untrue.

Shopping online is successful because it is for the most part very convenient, and it gives customers access to a far greater range of merchandise than they would ever be able to find at a local store. It also gives consumers the ability to shop around for the best price because if a product is available only at one store, that store sets the price. However if a product is available from many locations prices tend to be more competitive. The internet is the largest marketplace in the world with many retailers selling the same or similar merchandise at generally competitive rates.

Whacko, you know I love our little chats. There are three different arguments going on here, and you are mixing them all together. One argument is about sales tax, and one of them is about the effects of online shopping on B&M shops, and one of them is about the effects of sales tax-free online shopping on B&M stores.

I never said that taxing online purchases would have saved Tower and Virgin. I said that Amazon and iTunes killed Tower and Virgin as an example of how online shops killed these two media stores. Best-buy and Walmart didn't do as much to dent these stores, because they carry only top artists and albums and have no selection. As far as killing off mom and pop shops, there was a Tower in Lincoln Park in Chicago until the chain closed. Within 2 miles of Tower there were SIXTEEN RECORD STORES. Tower closed, and FOURTEEN record stores followed suit within two years. There are two left. That's pretty much all I need to say on that.

I could go on and on about iTunes, but I won't. There are great aspects to it, and there are bad aspects to it. As a person who was deeply involved in the music industry through retail and marketing, I could go on and on and on. But I won't. That's for another time. I shouldn't have even brought that example up because it takes us off topic.

Now if you go back and actually read my statement, it's pretty clear that what you say I am saying is not what I am actually saying. I never said anything about a unified sales tax. I said that states should collect the sales tax for items shipped to their state. As far as the logistics of collecting said tax, and as far as all of your individual issues with all the complexities of what is taxed in each state, there is a law that works just fine that has already been implemented. it just hasn't been expanded to cover all online purchases. If you go to a store, buy an item, and send that item over state lines to another state that has the same store, then you pay the sales tax of that state. Which means that each of the different state's rules and taxes and exemptions are to be followed, and that means that all POS systems are required to have this data programmed into them. And as I said, if you live in one of the small handful of states that doesn't charge sales tax, then you are a lucky bastard and don't have to pay tax.

I NEVER said that shopping online is mainly or only successful because there is no sales tax. I said they have an unfair advantage over brick and mortar shops because they don't charge sales tax.
My statement specifically says that I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ORDERING THINGS ONLINE. I FEEL THAT WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THE BRICK AND MORTAR STORES THAT ACTUALLY EMPLOY PEOPLE IN OUR COMMUNITIES AND PAY AND CHARGE SALES TAXES ARE NOT AT A DISADVANTAGE BY HAVING TO CHARGE TAX.

As is said, make sure all purchases (online or in shops) are taxed according to their destination state, or abolish sales taxes across the board.

this is one of those days where i hate the government. here's the latest reason why

http://news.aol.com/article/new-mexico-governor-bill-richardson/641838

the same people who wouldn't prosecute that black panther racist scum that was trying to intimidate voters last year with a billy club decided not to prosecute this guy.....

pitiful....


and then people wonder why this country never seems to get any better.

that's one fucked up dood....
but
pretty sure dood has a point.... it's kinda fucked up that they're banning flavored blunts, chew and cigarettes
like why ban cloves? wtf is up with that? not like i smoke the bitches but wtf?

and you know they're not going to ban Menthol... god knows they won't do that.
even though menthol is a fucking flavor.

I don't smoke and I don't think people should smoke. But I also believe that an adult has the right to do to themselves whatever the fuck they want. And I agree its stupid to ban flavored smokes. I mean honestly how many people of any age do you know smoke flavored cigarettes (aside from menthol)? I didn't even know half of those flavors were available until I read the article. In the retail stores I wored in for 10 years we didn't even offer any of those flavors, and I don't think any of the packies around where I live even stock them. In any case banning the flavors isn't going to have any effect on the number of teenagers who start smoking each year. I mean no one starts smoking because their tobaccos tastes like bananas...

Next thing you know they will ban wine coolers and Zima in order to prevent teens from starting to drink alcohol... its a fucking stupid philosophy...

I agree 100% with Whacko. It's absurd. Next up, we are banning the use of mixers in alcoholic beverages, because the delicious taste makes people want to start drinking.. It's pathetic. If the government is gonna get involved to this point, they should just ban it outright and be done with it. Banning flavors??? Seriously? But of course, they would never ban it outright, because they get too much money out of taxing tobacco. They do this stupid shit so it looks like they are doing everything they can to stop kids from smoking, but in reality if everyone had to stop smoking our government would go bankrupt.

I think that if the government banned cigs and the like, they would create a bigger black market than pot! I think it's kinda sad that the rise in tobacco taxes doesn't hurt rich people, it hurts the poor people who smoke the most. The problem is it doesn't make people stop smoking. It just takes more money from the people who need it the most. Here in Oklahoma we've been told the extra take goes to schools and stop smoking programs. Seriously, smoking helps KIDS!!!! Plus the stop smoking programs offer help, but with absurd requirements. Things like a stop smoking sponser. What the fuck is that? Just give me the patches and some gum OR lower the price of medication(most insurance company's will not cover) that aids the process. What it comes down to is the government and insurance company's make too much money from smokers! Banning tobacco means less taxes revenue and to a lesser degree healthier people. Somehow that's a bad thing.

Assburrito! wrote:I think that if the government banned cigs and the like, they would create a bigger black market than pot! I think it's kinda sad that the rise in tobacco taxes doesn't hurt rich people, it hurts the poor people who smoke the most. The problem is it doesn't make people stop smoking. It just takes more money from the people who need it the most. Here in Oklahoma we've been told the extra take goes to schools and stop smoking programs. Seriously, smoking helps KIDS!!!! Plus the stop smoking programs offer help, but with absurd requirements. Things like a stop smoking sponser. What the fuck is that? Just give me the patches and some gum OR lower the price of medication(most insurance company's will not cover) that aids the process. What it comes down to is the government and insurance company's make too much money from smokers! Banning tobacco means less taxes revenue and to a lesser degree healthier people. Somehow that's a bad thing.